Joseph Eidsvik 1 week ago

Ezekiel's Temple is not a future Temple. Ezekiel had in mind the Temple built by the exiles that returned from Babylon which was further constructed in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra.

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 5 days ago

+Joseph Eidsvik Thanks for the comment, Joseph.  Do you also think the Shekinah glory returned to the temple as in Ez 43, and the returned exiles rebuilt Jerusalem as in Ez 45 and 48, and dug the river of Ez 47, and divided up the land as in Ez 48?

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Joseph Eidsvik 4 days ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute Yes, I believe this is correct.

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 4 days ago (edited)

+Joseph Eidsvik Well, you're certainly free to believe that.  Here's a pic of how Ex 48 divides the land by tribe per the third video in this series, Ezekiel's Temple - Part 3: http://bible.ag/en/images/p35Israel.jpg I'm not sure what happened to all the fish of Ez 47 though, "The waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar ... and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. ... This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Dead Sea. When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live. 10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets. The fish will be of many kinds—like the fish of the Mediterranean Sea."

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Joseph Eidsvik 4 days ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute Thank you for your challenging perspective on the land division and the rivers flowing from the temple but I actually find the dating of Ezekiel's temple vision to be more clearly pointed out in Ezekiel 43. In verses 18-19 the Lord tells Ezekiel that he [Ezekiel] will present a bull to the sons of Zadok for a sin offering on the day that the altar of this temple is built. Additionally, in 43:11 the ones to "make/do" the instructions that Ezekiel gives for the construction of the temple must have Ezekiel "write it in their sight". Both of these two verses make it critical that this temple would, at least, begin its construction during the lifetime of Ezekiel seeing that he had to be present for both occasions. As for the the rivers that flow out from the temple in Ezek. 47, the Hebrew never states that the waters would flow into the Dead Sea nor make the waters into fresh water. In fact, Ezek. 47:11 has a mistranslation. Where the word "swamps" ("miry places" KJV) is translated from the archaic Hebrew spelling of בצאתו and connects it the the Hebrew root בצה meaning "swamps/mire" should rather be with the ב as a preposition and the root coming from the Hebrew תוצאות meaning "outlets". This is how the translators of the Septuagint translated the Hebrew as well. Ezek. 47:11 would then read "But its outlets and overflows will not become fresh, they will be left for salt." This contrasts the traditional interpretation of the passage by making it clear that where these rivers let out into the sea, the sea still remains salty. The wording in verse 8 where the waters go into the sea "being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh" should be "being made to flow westward into the west and will be healing waters". The use of the Hebrew ימה is only translated as "sea" in this verse yet is used 21 other times in Ezekiel as "west". This confusion is between the words ים and ימה which are most often translated "sea" and "west" respectively. The reason this is important is that the picturing of the Dead Sea in this passage is never in view but rather multiple rivers flowing in all directions from the temple (see Zech. 14:8). I perceive the curses that had befallen Israel and Judah earlier in Ezekiel's prophecies to be removed by the Lord and "showers of blessing" (Ezek. 34:26) to be returning to the land and the underground siphon-type wells that surround Jerusalem to be spewing out their reserves after a rainy season. The evidence that the curse was turning to a blessing during the times of the exiles is found in the opening verses of Haggai's letter and in Ezra 10:9 and 13 which speak of "heavy rains" and a regularly anticipated "rainy season" returning to the land. I hope this helps in understanding some important features regarding Ezekiel's vision. God bless!

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 1 day ago

+Joseph Eidsvik It looks like you're missing the gist of this passage. Ezekiel 47:3-5ff describes a river that gets gradually deeper and can have its depth measured every thousand cubits until it is too deep to swim, not "the underground siphon-type wells that surround Jerusalem to be spewing out their reserves after a rainy season." The waters of this river are 'magical' in that they not only 'heal' other waters, but the trees by them have leaves that never fade which also heal and unending fruit, not merely because they have an unending supply of water, but because of where the waters come from, "because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary," 47:12. If it's not the Dead Sea that's healed, as most translations assert, then how can it be that "fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi [on the Dead Sea] even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many." As for 43, perhaps if Israel had repented then Ezekiel would have gotten to dedicate the alter but because Israel did not repent, that is left to a future generation of Israel. "Son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. And IF THEY BE ASHAMED OF ALL THAT THEY HAVE DONE, shew them ... all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them," Ez43:11. It looks conditional, like partial revelation with a condition of repentance before full revelation and before 20-27 can occur. Of course, if God can resurrect David to be king of the nation of Israel under the King of Kings of all nations, "they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them," Jer30:9; then he can also easily resurrect Zechariah to serve in the future Messianic Kingdom. Regardless of whether or not this passage has anything to say about Zechariah's resurrection, I assume you believe in the resurrection and have no problem with the idea of God resurrecting people in the future and giving them positions of authority and service.

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Joseph Eidsvik 1 day ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute I fully understand your perspective on this passage due to its being the overwhelmingly popular view. Still, you must realize that there are many karst siphon-type wells surrounding Jerusalem which makes it unique when compared to most places in the world. Psalm 87:7 speaks of this "all my springs are in you". Ezekiel 36:8-10 connects a "soon coming" of the people of Israel back to there land (i.e. return from Babylon) to the land being cultivated and bearing fruit just like what is spoken of in Ezekiel 47:12. As Ezekiel begins his prophecies by speaking about the curse of the Lord coming upon Judah and Israel, at about chapter 34 he begins to speak about how the Lord would restore the people to blessing. It is true what you have stated regarding chapter 43 being conditional but I think the oversight is that the condition would result in Ezekiel "writing in their sight",not the vision being fulfilled. The fact that we have Ezekiel's writings regarding the his vision today tells us that the people did indeed fulfill the qualifications of the conditional statement "if they are ashamed of all they have done" and Ezekiel did "write it in their sight". In 43:11 it is those same people who would see Ezekiel write out the vision that would also be the ones to "do them."

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Joseph Eidsvik 23 hours ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute You make the assertion that most translations perceive the water from the temple to move toward the Dead Sea. Topographically, that would be an impossibility, as it would require an uphill flow of water. Also, while most English translations seem to assert this interpretation of the passage, I was not using the English but the Hebrew in understanding its context.

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 13 hours ago (edited)

+Joseph Eidsvik I can't imagine how you are picturing it. The angel measures the depth of the water every 1000 cubits and makes Ezekiel get into the water each time. Are you picturing that there amazingly is a karst siphon type well spaced exactly every 1000 cubits that Ezekiel gets down into? And you didn't address the great multitude of all kinds of fish at ein gedi. And why mention they are like the fish of the Mediterranean if it is the Mediterranean? As for the direction of the water it flows down the great west to east valley that forms when Messiah's feet stand on the mount of olives and the mountain splits moving towards the north and south and Jerusalem is raised up in its place and the Judean and Samarian hills are made into a plain. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh ...2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken ... 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.5 ... and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day ... 7 ... it shall be one day ... not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth ... 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it [Jerusalem] shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place. ...12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. ...16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, theLord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zechariah 14.

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Joseph Eidsvik 12 hours ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute Actually, I am not picturing a spring every 1000 cubits but rather a many springs contributing to the increased depth of the water as one would naturally see walking out to the Kidron valley. The letter of Aristeas describes Jerusalem around the 2nd or 3rd cent. BC and states ""There is an inexhaustible reservoir of water, as would be expected from an abundant spring gushing up naturally from within the [temple]..." The Roman historian, Tacitus, described Jerusalem as having "a natural spring of water that welled from its interior". Josephus records in the 1st cent. AD that the temple mount had "deep canals, and cisterns...in several parts...through which the water ran out." (Wars 5.4.4) Josephus also records that at the time when Titus came to destroy Jerusalem that there many springs "of such great quantity of water... sufficient not only for drink both for themselves and their cattle, but for watering their gardens also. The same wonderful sign you [the Jews] had also experienced formerly." (Wars 5.9.4) He states also that the fountain reaching to Siloam by way of a valley called Cheesemongers produced a huge supply of water. (Wars 5.4.1-2) Today we can contrast this huge amount of water that was being supplied at that time and speak nothing to this effect today because no water is springing up from under Jerusalem like this today. We may also want to take note of the fact that just such a river is spoken about in Scripture. In 2 Chron. 32:4 king Hezekiah has to"stop up all the springs (pl.) and the stream which flowed through the land, saying, 'Why should the kings of Assyria come and find abundant water?'" Today you don't see this in Jerusalem but apparently, in times of blessing, you would find this. It is to this effect that Isaiah speaks of the time of return from Babylon (Isa. 43:14) and states "Behold, I will do something new, now it will spring forth; will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, rivers in the desert. The beasts of the field will glorify Me; the jackals and the ostriches; because I have given waters in the wilderness and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My chosen people." (Isa. 43:19-21) As for the multitude of fish, this would be a normal occurrence to have fish swimming in the rivers of Israel when they were well watered. Many subterranean wadis exist or have evidence of existing at one time. Today these wadis do not carry water but they do connect to the Mediterranean sea and so likewise one would find the same kinds of fish in the rivers of Israel as one would find in the Mediterranean. The mention of Ein Geddi and Ein Eglaim should tell us something just in their names. The Hebrew word "Ein" means spring which implies that the reason that these men are spreading their nets in these places is because these places are hot spots for fishing in the springs. Even today at Ein Geddi there are a few fish living in the spring.

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 12 hours ago (edited)

+Joseph Eidsvik "And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many." You really think the springs of Ein Gedi even at their peak ever had as many kinds of fish as the Mediterranean, exceeding many? You need a healed to life Dead Sea to have a very great multitude of fish of all kinds like in the Mediterranean. Fishing in the springs of Ein Gedi is like comparing fishing for sun fish in a pond to fishing for ahi etc. in the ocean. Http://google.com/search?q=fish+Mediterranean&num=100&tbm=isch

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Joseph Eidsvik 44 minutes ago

+Philadelphia Bible Institute I don't believe that Ezekiel is referring to Ein Geddi and Ein Eglaim as having the multitude of fish that is spoken of in this passage but rather that "wherever the rivers (pl.) shall come" shall have fish inhabit there waters, "exceeding many", even reaching to the springs of Ein Geddi and Ein Eglaim.

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 10 minutes ago (edited)

+Joseph Eidsvik Just using your own description, if the multitude of fish of all kinds like the Mediterranean will be "wherever the rivers shall come" and the rivers shall be "even reaching (coming) to the springs of Ein Geddi", then the multitude of fish of all kinds like the Med. will be in Ein Geddi, and I think you know based on the link I provided above of the great diversity of fish in the Med., that this has never happened in Ein Geddi. WhereeverWaters Are MedLikeFish; Ein Geddi Has WhereeverWaters; Therefor Ein Geddi Has MedLikeFish. Is there ANY language God could have used to convey to you a miraculous river that starts as a trickle and flows through desert without significant additions but miraculously becomes a great river that miraculously heals everything in its path and even the leaves of the trees that drink of that river provide miraculous healing to people and a miraculous abundance of all kinds of MedLike fishes at Ein Geddi because, as Ez 47 emphasizes, it's source is from temple and not only .001 percent of the source and volume of the water is from the temple? If God had said something like, "This is a miraculous river that results in miraculous healing," would you accept that language as conveying the concept or would you find some historian or linguist who mentioned that the word miraculous actually only meant pretty cool back then or that the lamed was miscopied as a resh or something, anything to avoid the supernatural power of God who created and sustains all things. Tell me, how COULD God have said it if that is what he was trying to convey to us?

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Joseph Eidsvik 1 week ago (edited)

+Philadelphia Bible Institute Don't get me wrong, I believe this to be the miraculous hand of God in every way. The reason for your words here are not based on the miraculous or not, they are based on the difference of opinion with regard to the passage's interpretation. Yet a simpler approach is needed to understand difficult passages in the Bible. The most common hermeneutic is to move from the simple aspects to the more difficult. Your perception of this passage surrounding Ezekiel's temple vision (ch. 40-48) begins with one of the more difficult. It is easier to determine the timing of this temple vision like I suggested by certain timing elements found in chapter 43, which suggests that Ezekiel must be alive at the beginning of the construction of this temple (which includes these waters with fish) and build our interpretation from there. Instead, you have begun with the most difficult passage that tells us nothing about its timing and then in turn you must submit that Ezekiel must be resurrected in order for this to all come about. The question would then be why did Ezekiel never mention this amazing miracle of the resurrection anywhere in the restoration chapters of his vision? (ch. 34-48) These restoration chapters anticipate a "soon coming" of the people to the land with the miraculous restoration of these waters at the same time (34:26, 36:8-10, 36:29-30, 47:12).

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Philadelphia Bible Institute 1 second ago

+Joseph Eidsvik There is nothing difficult about Ezekiel 40-48 unless your doctrine stands in the way. A child can easily understand it with a feltboard presentation if it's presented literally and one believes in the power of God. There will be a temple, the boundaries of the nation of Israel will extend farther than they ever have in history, and there will be a miraculous life-giving river from the temple whose waters will turn the Dead Sea into fresh water teaming with all kinds of fish like in the Mediterranean. It's not enough to accept things that can happen through natural means, like plentiful rainfall for a period, as being miraculous, just because God can provide rain. The Bible is full of miracles that defy natural laws: waters standing as a heap on both sides, an axe head floating, a man running faster than a chariot, walking on water, changing water to wine, oil or bread or fish that never runs out, seeing all the kingdoms of the world in an instant in time, the teleportation of Philip, and on and on. As for Ezekiel not having anything to say about his own resurrection, if David will be resurrected to a position of authority and service in the Messianic Kingdom, why not Ezekiel also? Ezekiel 37:12, "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves ... 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations ... so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them."